Veterans Series: Ten recommendations to veterans. A conversation with Max Dubroff

This post is part of a series that already includes conversations with:

Chris Norton: Veterans are social and connected

Lance Sapera: The service is a long version of University

Caleb Fullhart: An army recruiter changed my life forever

Arron Daniels: I Can Knock It Out of the Park!

Rhonda Stickley: Embracing the Learn and Grow Veterans' ethos to understand leadership

Brenda Bell : Veterans will help your company succeed

By Marylene Delbourg-Delphis

Max Dubroff is the"HR MAXimizer" of Buy for Le$$, a leading grocery provider of fresh, diverse, unique and economical food products in Oklahoma which he joined in 2009 after over 20 years in the military. He graduated from the US Air Force Academy and selected the Security Police career field, which he says was "a fantastic decision.  I learned tremendous amounts about leadership and had many opportunities to have positive impacts on the mission and people.  For one-fourth of my career, I was entrusted with command of two squadrons, the most rewarding role in my life."  If I had to summarize Max's approach, I would say that he never left his life entirely up to chance and instead deliberately created his own luck with amazing focus and determination.

What did you do to transition from the Military to a civilian position?

I got educated.  I earned a degree in human resource management 17 years prior to retirement, because I thought I might like that field; it was a key differentiator and helped me earn more.

I was mentally prepared.  Although I was never impacted by a RIF (Reduction-in-Force), I realized that everyone needs to be prepared at all times. My professional readings included books and magazines that helped me get an understanding of the culture outside the military, particularly in business. I went to transition assistance twice, once prior to retirement in Germany and then while on terminal leave in Oklahoma. Both were a little out of touch with what companies really want, but they helped me figure out my own path.

I networked.  I found a great mentor in the HR field who specializes in networking. I joined Toastmasters; I went to Rotary meetings; I joined the local HR professionals organization... None of it got me a job.  But, I was learning more about the community. I got certified.  I studied for professional certification and earned it.  Military certifications do not mean much to civilian employers. I looked everywhere.  I had to get over the idea of working for the #1 company in the area and look at industries I had not considered.  I accepted every interview opportunity and saw it as a chance to hone my skills; that is how I found my job ... I wasn't looking at them, but I was ready for when I met them. I accepted a challenging position in a company that was strong and growing, that I knew I could have a great impact on.  I didn't get paid as much as I wanted, but I knew I would earn more as I proved my value.

What are your top ten recommendations to veterans?

 1. You're not the only ones who work hard.  Small and medium businesses (i.e. the majority of businesses that exist) have a level of 'do more with less' that exceeds what most veterans can fathom.  Sure, there are some nice, laid-back companies out there; but, many of them are getting passed by the smart, hard-working ones.

 2. It is competitive.  Don't presume that 'qualified' is enough ... There are plenty of people who are qualified.  Know yourself and have a focus on what you want. Note that as a hiring manager, I am turned off by someone who says, "I'll do anything" because it won't be a good marriage."

 3. Look for entry points to organizations you want.  It might not be the dream job at first, but it will give you the opportunity to prove your value and progress to that dream job after a long time. The military culture typically thinks in shorter 'tours' than civilian businesses, so be ready to persist.

 4. Be realistic.  Picture yourself in the military, having numerous years of experience ... and then they announce that they are bringing in a person who has extensive experience in leading businesses ... to be your commander!  How absurd, right?  Well, the same logic applies to you.  Don't expect to enter the business world at (or near) the top after having no experience in their industry [see #2 above].

 5. Learn the civilian jargon.  I met a retired E-8 who wrote on his resume that he was the chief operations officer for his organizations.  He had no idea what that meant and his rationalization exposed his weaknesses.  Yes, we hope they will accommodate us and try to figure out what our jargon means; but, they are looking at piles of resumes and you want yours to stand out.

 6. A good resume takes lots of work; but a good resume won't get you a job.  You need a great resume to even get noticed, and that will take tons of work.  Buy or borrow some books and get advice from others.  Trim it down and make it focused on the key points.  Leave white space and make it readable.

 7. Interview a lot.  Every interview is different and you will learn about yourself and be better prepared for the most important interview when the opportunity comes.

 8. Do not pay for assistance right away.  Resume writing services are most helpful if you have been working on your resume for months and can't see the next rendition.  There are also agencies that will help prep, network and place you for a mere $3k-$4k. I haven't seen a good one yet, but I am sure they are out there.  Make sure you do your homework and check their results carefully before you open your wallet.

 9. Volunteer.  It's a great way to network and develop some experience.  During my employment, I have continued to volunteer, which has resulted in more great leadership opportunities, including a position as a board chair and nomination to be a commissioner.

 10. Be real and positive.  The interview is not just about them deciding if they like you; it is also about you deciding if you like them!  Use this as the opportunity to prevent getting into a bad relationship.  Look at non-selection as a chance to re-evaluate what you are and what you want.  If you come into the interview exhausted and beaten by repeated rejection, I will not be interested.

Veterans Series: Veterans will help your company succeed: Conversation with Brenda Bell

By Sophie Delphis

This post is part of a series that already includes conversations with:

Rhonda Stickley: Embracing the Learn and Grow Veterans' ethos to understand leadership

Lance Sapera: The service is a long version of University

Chris Norton: Veterans are social and connected

Caleb Fullhart: An army recruiter changed my life forever

Arron Daniels: I Can Knock It Out of the Park!

My mother (Marylene Delbourg-Delphis) hired Brenda Bell in the late eighties to work for her company at the time, ACIUS, the maker of 4^th Dimension. Back then, Brenda was barely out of her teens, with two children, a limited college education, little job experience and a place in the Army Reserve (Military Police —670 MP Company California Army National Guard), but my mother was interested in this young woman in spite of her less-than-perfect corporate package. During and after her time at ACIUS, Brenda was called in to First Gulf War, earned two college degrees and worked her way through a series of high tech jobs that eventually landed her in her current position at IBM. I grew up hearing her interesting and inspiring story, and I was excited to learn that my mother was interviewing her as part of her ongoing series on hiring veterans. 

Brenda was very young, and not necessarily an obvious hire... In fact, both women laugh at the memory of my mother teaching Brenda how to put on make-up, how to talk to a diverse group of people, etc.

Brenda Bell: I was twenty years old. You took a chance on me, and you taught me a lot. It really helped, because you deal with a lot of people. And I’m comfortable to be dealing with lots of different people on a day-to-day basis.

Brenda was the first veteran my mother hired. Since then, she has been able to experience first-hand how flexible and versatile veterans can be when given a chance.

She did not see it as a problem that Brenda was in the Reserve, nor that she ended up taking some time off because of the first Gulf War – ultimately accommodating an employee was worth a bit of restructuring. And Brenda’s choice to enter the military made sense.

Brenda Bell: I had gone to college, and I wasn’t successful. I didn’t have parent financial support, so I had a lot of student loans. The military paid off all of my loans, and they provided me educational benefits: for staying in the Reserve after I got out of the military, they paid for further college. That’s really why I went into the military: I had a lot of student loan debt, and I didn’t have a lot of job skills, and it was a good way for me to start paying back my college debt and then gain some skills and allow me to go back to school.

After initially earning her two-year Associate’s Degree in Management, she returned to school after the military to earn two Bachelor’s Degrees in Organizational Management and Computer Science.

Brenda Bell: After I left ACIUS, I went to work for Sybase. And, you know, just being immersed in that environment, working with development tools, I really had to understand software development and design, so having this degree in organizational management wasn’t enough. I had to continue to grow. And that’s another thing you learn in the military, because they keep having you take leadership courses to grow and learn, so that helped me to be willing to go out and get that second degree, to learn more.

So I went back to school, part-time in the evenings, out here in New England, and I got a second degree and continued to work for some software companies and a couple of start-ups. One of the start-ups I was working for was going out of business and sold their code to Rational, which was then acquired by IBM and so I was able to branch out to other divisions within IBM.

Brenda's background in the military has proved immensely useful.

Brenda Bell: The relationships I formed in the military and my understanding of military structure help me pretty much everyday. In my particular environment, I sell to federal customers on a daily basis, so being able to understand what their needs and their challenges are is very helpful. Being able to speak the same language that they speak puts you in a better rapport with them. And also the relationships: I don’t think anybody can discount the value of the relationships that you build in the military, and that a lot of military veterans, once they go out, are willing to help other veterans. So you can use those relationships, too, to help improve your career and help your company to succeed.

This does not mean that veterans have an easy time transferring to civilian careers, however. This is particularly true in the current economic climate, in which employment is tough for young veterans, and tough for young adults in general.

Brenda Bell: My son just came back from a couple of tours, and he was going back to work, and I think one of the hard things, not just from my own experience, but from seeing his experience, is that they don’t know how to translate military skills to civilian skills. He had a very hard time with his resume: he was in the infantry and he was a team leader, but I had to help him translate “What does a team leader do?” into civilian terms.

Brenda is a fantastic example of a single mother who had to get through some rough patches in her life but eventually made it work. She is now a client executive in the Federal Business unit for the Americas at IBM. She lives in New England with her husband and has come a long way from the unfocused, insecure kid she was when she started working at ACIUS. My mother took an interest in seeing this ex-employee develop, and “will always be proud of the role that [she] played in [Brenda’s] career.”

Veterans Series: Embracing the Learn and Grow Veterans' ethos to understand leadership: Conversation with Rhonda Stickley

Learn more about best practices in recruiting veteran and military job seekers by joining a Talent Circles sponsored webinar on 2/13/14 at 9:00 PM PST. Click here to register & learn more. 

This post is part of a series that already includes conversations with:

Chris Norton: Veterans are social and connected

Caleb Fullhart: An army recruiter changed my life forever

Arron Daniels: I Can Knock It Out of the Park!

By Marylene Delbourg-Delphis

Rhonda Stickley started her second term as President of the DirectEmployers Association (DE) in October 2013 and although focusing on technology, her heart is very close to an area where DE is extremely active: Military/Veterans-related initiatives. These initiatives are designed to help the Association’s members understand the importance of employing America’s veterans and provide them with the information and resources they need.

The extent of training and real-world experience of America’s Veterans is foreign to the vast majority of employers.  By meeting and talking to Veterans, or simply reading about their experiences you will better understand why Veterans' skills are often far easier to translate into civilian jobs than commonly assumed.

Companies over the years have learned to embrace diversity. Building up your Military Circle could be part of your efforts. You will realize the value of hiring Veterans by taking full measure of the level of responsibility that the Military ends up giving to its recruits. Sometimes, it's astounding — as is demonstrated profoundly in Rhonda's case.

Why did you join the Military?

I volunteered during a time when there were not a lot of women entering the military. I had started college and was not enamored with working at minimum wage jobs to pay for College, so I went down to the recruiter's office. I explored several opportunities in order to take advantage of a program offered at that time called VEAP (Veteran Educational Assistance Program) that would allow for both dollar matching and up to full payment for your education based on the number of years you committed. I had to take a number of exams and I tested very high, which provided me with the opportunity to have the pick of which career field(s) I would enter, and I chose to join the Military Police Corps (MP). I had some requirements however: I wanted a “guarantee” for education dollars, my chosen Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) – MP, and I also wanted to see the world.  They agreed, in writing, that I would be stationed somewhere in Europe, that I would be a Military Police Officer, and that my education would be paid for. They met all my requirements and I joined. When I graduated from Basic Training and my Advanced Individual Training (AIT) course (that is Military Police School), I became an active-duty MP. I did my One Station Unit Training (OSUT) at Fort McClellan, Alabama.

What did you do?

In 1982 I was assigned to the 7th Army NATO and I spent 3 years in Central Europe, based in Miesau, Germany. I flew all over Europe as part of NATO and the initial deployment of the Pershing II missiles throughout Europe.  While I was there our unit was repeatedly on alert for the high amount of terrorism at the time and we toggled between responding to those alerts and ensuring the safety of our NATO sites. I flew on hundreds of missions with NATO using Boeing equipment and though it did not seem like a big deal to me at the time, it was a lot of responsibility for a 20 year old.

During my off hours I focused my attention on taking classes at the local base through the University of Maryland. My education gave me points towards promotion, which combined with my weapons skills, being very active physically, and being very goal-oriented, allowed me to be identified as someone with leadership potential early in my career.  As a result, I moved quickly through the ranks and a Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) or Sergeant/E-5 at the age of 21.  With that promotion to Sergeant, my responsibilities also increased and as a result, I was managing a platoon of 30 men and 3 women. While stationed in Europe, I competed for and won the US Army, Europe and 7^th Army Battalion Soldier of the Quarter and a Schutzenhaus Medal for a M-60 machine gun competition between the US and German military.  I attended advanced training in NATO Nuclear Surety Management and when I was reassigned to the United States at Fort Lewis, WA, I worked at the Battalion S-2 and Brigade G-2.  My responsibilities centered on managing a team responsible for the classified documents which directed the military operations of our unit. While stationed at Ft Lewis, I was awarded an Army Achievement Medal for meritorious service and selection as the 1986 Ft Lewis Non-Divisional, NCO of the Year.  This was the first time the award had ever been presented to a female NCO.  Because of my prior assignments with 7^th Army and NATO, I also had a Top Secret/Special Background Investigation (TS/SBI) clearance.  I was assigned to the role in S-2/G-2 for approximate 18 months, then transferred within the Battalion to plain clothes investigator, investigating crimes on base while also performing the additional duty of Battalion Ethics Officer.  I held this last role for a little more than a year until I transitioned off active duty. I needed to make a decision to stay in or get out and ultimately chose to leave active service and finish my time in the reserves and Officer Candidate School.

How easy was it to get a civilian job?

For me, it ended up being quite easy. At the time Boeing was hiring and I applied for a position they were unable to tell me details about due to its classified nature, but I was ultimately hired. I worked on a program that was called Project WILO. Part of the reason I was hired was because I possessed the degree, skills and TS/SBI clearance level required to work there.   These clearances often take six months to a year to obtain and they needed help immediately.  At the time it was a classified program and it was widely unknown to the world what we were working on.   Ultimately the project I was working on became more commonly known as the B2 bomber program. Project WILO (What’s It Like Outside) was named so because you had to go through several levels of security to get in the building, and there were no windows. They were looking for someone with my background, skills and security credentials, so I was fortunate to have a level of responsibility in the workplace that aligned with what I had experienced in the military.  They say luck is merely preparation and timing coming together, and I felt very lucky to transition so quickly when many others did not.

Why do you think recruiters are so skittish about hiring veterans? Are they afraid that Veterans, especially young Veterans might be too difficult to manage because they had experienced a lot at a young age? Is it ignorance?

I think it may be more just ignorance of what veterans bring to the table because often times people don't have any experience working directly with the military. They do not necessarily understand the translation of skills. Products like the Military Crosswalk may help, but it is truly a foreign experience for many recruiters. When you do not have and understanding, context or shared experience to draw on, it's hard to imagine how even the core skills that are learned in the military translate to a civilian role. So when you don't know, it may be easier to stick to stereotypes drawn from one bad experience or one story, or to the cliché that if you are in the military, you are inflexible, a rule follower or unable to think independently.  The truth is that the drills you go through in the military are not the same as the drills you go through in the work place. Soldier often have multiple responsibilities and many complex situations simply become autonomic. Based on my firsthand experience I think, of course, that a young military person has more ability to be flexible and adapt to changing situations than someone who hasn't been in the military.

Corporations place a large value on what you've learned. The reality is that it's not what you know; it's what you need to know, which is always changing. It's about the ability to acquire knowledge fast enough to move business forward and that's a different skill set than checking a box saying "I went to ‘x’ university and got my 4-year degree in ‘y’." In the military everyone has to continue to learn and adapt. You may not know something today, but you can and will learn it for whatever assignment is next and continuous learning is key.

Many of our countries most prestigious university and executive training programs come straight from the military.  Think of GE and their leadership development program. Much of it was based on some of the learning and development techniques used by the Military. For example, the GE Work-out is a form of the military’s After-Action Review (AAR) process! Don't get frozen! Adapt and grow!

Thanks, Rhonda, and as we spoke about the GE Work-out, I recommend that you read a great book that was published over 10 years ago: The GE Work-out: How to Implement GE's Revolutionary Method for Busting Bureaucracy and Attacking Organizational Problems-Fast!

Veterans Series: I Can Knock It Out of the Park! A Conversation with Arron Daniels

Learn more about best practices in recruiting veteran and military job seekers by joining a Talent Circles sponsored webinar on 2/13/14 at 9:00 PM PST. Click here to register & learn more. 

By Marylene Delbourg-Delphis

This post is part of a series that already includes conversations with:

•  Chris Norton: Veterans are social and connected
•  Caleb Fullhart: An army recruiter changed my life forever

More to come! Meanwhile enjoy my conversation with Arron Daniels!

Now a Senior Sourcing Analyst at Insperity, Arron Daniels is passionate about what shaped his life forever and for the better – the Army National Guard, with which he has 13 years of service. Having joined as a junior in high school, upon graduation, he undertook specific job training in signal communications.

Arron’s family has a long history of military service since the Civil War, including his father’s service in the Air Force. Now at age 31, Arron belongs to the early tier of Millennial Veterans. His story is the antithesis of over-generalized and caricatured views of Millennials, also known as Generation Y. As evidenced by multiple research papers (and interestingly summarized in a Wikipedia article), Generation Y is not always characterized by entitlement, but more often by high expectations driven by dedication and hard work – what David Burstein refers to as “pragmatic idealism.”

Arron Daniels’ career path is an inspiration to a new generation of veterans. This generation is represented by a large group that will re-enter civilian life within the next few months during a high unemployment rate. It is equally inspirational to recruiters who are seeking top talent, as it is critical for them to understand the traits of younger veterans, and how they differ from Baby Boomer Veterans.

What was your job in the Army?

My job was the AT&T of sorts for the Army. My team was responsible for setting up encryption phones, computers and radio signals. When a large unit was deployed forwardly in a combat situation, we would go along for the ride to support their encrypted communications needs. When I got into a more senior leadership role, my First Sergeant called me into his office. He said, “Hey Sergeant Daniels, we’ve got something else for you to do that needs to get done, and no one else really wants to do it.” I became an Equal Opportunity Liaison for my unit’s command structure. That was my first real taste of human resources. I was also introduced to recruiting in the military. In 2007,  I went to recruiter school and attended a six-week-long training program to learn how to interview, make phone calls, set appointments, screen applicants  and ask more in-depth questions – all the recruiting basics. Things you would expect a first- or second-year recruiter to know, but more targeted toward the military. That class helped me immensely, especially when I transitioned from the military into a civilian job.

How did you get a job at Insperity?

I left recruiting command and continued to serve in a reserve status. I was interested in a recruiting job and came across a posting on the Insperity website for a Government Sourcing Analyst. Although I wasn’t familiar with the term sourcing, the position was in the recruiting department. I knew a thing or two about government contractors from working within the signal field, and I was well versed with the security clearance process and lingo from recruiting human intelligence collectors and satellite communications soldiers. In addition, I had become a senior recruiter for my team where my focus was on hard-to-fill positions. Since I still didn’t know what sourcing was. I assumed that Insperity wanted somebody to recruit in the supply chain for government contractors. Of course, I was completely wrong, but I unknowingly applied for the position.

About a year and a half after I was hired, the Insperity recruiter admitted that she wasn’t completely convinced that I was a good fit for the job based on my resume alone, but I was definitely worth a phone call because she thought I had transferrable skills. A successful phone interview resulted in a face-to-face interview. Apparently the recruiter also liked my attitude and personality, so she thought I would be a good culture fit. I didn’t know anything about sourcing, so she took the time to personally train me. She gave me just enough to whet my appetite and told me to “dive in and be a sponge.” I was assigned a mentor who periodically checked on my progress and pointed me to the sourcing greats in the industry. I took to sourcing like a duck to water. In June 2011, I began training my team on Google custom search engines, which blossomed into a secondary role as a trainer for sourcing within our department.

I am very grateful that Insperity gave me an opportunity to demonstrate my abilities and grow within the company. Great recruiters have the ability to see beyond an applicant’s resume. They look at skills, but most importantly, they also look at a candidate’s potential so that a company  does not overlook great talent.

“You give me a chance and I can knock it out of the park!” That’s what any good veteran will say, even when they’re missing one or two required skills. Of course, you need to find the civilian recruiters who understand that!

Would you make “I can knock it out of the park” part of the warrior-in-transition ethos?

Yes. We are veterans, but we are not entitled to get a civilian job just because we are veterans. It’s also our duty to continue to apply what we learned in the Army. For me, it’s two things.

The first thing is to always learn and grow. Within the Army leadership structure, you have to attend a professional development school and pass practical and written examinations. It’s 12 hours a day or more of constant learning. Both enlisted soldiers and officers have to attend these courses for every level of progression. Those who don’t have the will to keep growing and learning either get out or get forced out. So the military is actually retaining the best and the most driven. Learning and growing is a principle that has stayed with me. I always try to attain some kind of certification or attend classes because I need to keep learning.

The second thing is the warrior ethos. “I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade.” Any service member reading this may think it’s a bit cheesy, but it’s true. In the end, the warrior ethos is all about work ethic. If you give a veteran a chance just as Insperity gave to me, they’ll move heaven and earth to get the job done. They’ll execute, plain and simple.

In 2012, Arron wrote a great post for Blogging4Jobs.com entitled “Why Employers Don’t Hire Veterans.” It provides practical information about the VOTC, WOTC and the American Jobs Act. The article stresses that it’s easy to translate a military job into a civilian job using an MOS translator. Yet, an employer will know a veteran when they have him/her talk about his/her “implied responsibilities,” and this may be the knowledge that will enable the employer to evaluate the true potential of a veteran for their company.